What Is Reality...?

H

HAL

Guest
Well, got half way through this so far. Will come back to it later to see the rest.

But I detect a hint of sophistry. Basically he is suggesting, as others have, that if he isn't looking at something, it doesn't exist.
His example of the apple is rather weak. He asks if the apple he sees still exists if he can't see it. And suggests that, in this context, it doesn't. But this is quite easy to resolve. put the apple on a table. you see it there. It exists. Turn away, you don't see it. It doesn't exist ?

While still facing away from the table, ask someone else 'is there anything on the table ?' They will reply, 'yes, an apple'. But you are suggesting the apple no longer exists as you can't see it.

So, is the apple there or not ? Is it a collective delusion.

See what I mean, it's all sophistry.

HAL
 
H

HAL

Guest
A better hypothetical to offer would be the following.

There is a town in the middle of a ten mile wide prairie. Dotted around the edge of the prairie are a number of farms. The area also has an airport that has 24 hour radar coverage of the whole area up to twenty miles out.

People in the town and the farms report seeing a huge slow moving object crossing the area. At least one person in each farm and half a dozen in the town see it. they are reporting obviously of the same thing at around the same time.

The airport traffic control says they have nothing on the radar for that period, and no one at the airport saw it.

So did it exist ?
What was the reality ?

Where do we go with this kind of situation.

Anyone thinking of Stevensville ? What about you, LETA ?

HAL
 
D

Dundee

Guest
This is too complex a subject. Right now I need a bowl of Kung Pao chicken ;-)
You should taste my Pork...I am a legend in my own mind..but thanks to Gordon Ramsey I cook it better than my ex :)
 
H

HAL

Guest
You should taste my Pork...I am a legend in my own mind..but thanks to Gordon Ramsey I cook it better than my ex :)
With offers like that who could resist ? I am a foreigner in my mind; but I'm working on that . ;)
 
D

Dr Wu

Guest
Well, got half way through this so far. Will come back to it later to see the rest.

But I detect a hint of sophistry. Basically he is suggesting, as others have, that if he isn't looking at something, it doesn't exist.
His example of the apple is rather weak. He asks if the apple he sees still exists if he can't see it. And suggests that, in this context, it doesn't. But this is quite easy to resolve. put the apple on a table. you see it there. It exists. Turn away, you don't see it. It doesn't exist ?

While still facing away from the table, ask someone else 'is there anything on the table ?' They will reply, 'yes, an apple'. But you are suggesting the apple no longer exists as you can't see it.

So, is the apple there or not ? Is it a collective delusion.

See what I mean, it's all sophistry.

HAL
I think you are mishearing his premises...he is a scientist and not into sophistry at all....not a philosopher nor metaphysician..
I'm not defending his position but what he is saying is that yes the apple is there in some form but we are not seeing the true reality of what the apple is. There is a deeper reality where our interface reality derives from. It might sound similar to the Buddhist comments on' it's all in the mind', but that is not quite what he is saying. He does believe that consciousness is the basis for all reality but that something is indeed there ,but due to our evolutionary choices and process that we have evolved to only perceive what we need to see to survive and continue. We need payoffs that allow us to pass on our genes and too much information would not be good for a biological creature ;like us. Ergo we have constructed via our brians and consciousness an interface reality so we can function in that regard. Even our discovery of the sub atomic realm and quantum structures represent the interface, or the hardware and software if you like, but that deeper reality remains hidden due to our limitations as humans with the senses we have. He and many others postulate that we may never discover the true nature of reality because of this.
 
D

Dr Wu

Guest
The problem is one of what they are calling 'hard consciousness'...does it originate with the material brain or is it more hidden and is a part of Reality itself. Some are now postulating that consciousness even resides in subatomic structure.
People like Hoffman, Chalmers, Pinker, Deutsch, and others are exploring these concepts over the last 20 years or so...though the idea that reality is not what we seem to think it is goes back a long way indeed.
Lex Fridman has a podcast show on you tube interviewing many of these men and women.
 
H

HAL

Guest
One could reduce that to everything is made of quarks (and smaller 'thingies') and it would cover it all.

I agree that when he sees an apple he is not seeing the actual particle construction of the apple that would be as close to reality as we can imagine. But he is seeing what in everyday life we call an apple. And that apple will still be an apple whether or not he is looking at it.
 
K

KozmicJewels

Guest
Without yet understanding the intricacies of how Conscious ~”ness” “effects/affects” that which it is Conscious of, and this exact interplay, I can’t say much. I have however, for lack of a better term had experiences of a more fundamental reality than that one bound by the subject/object paradigm and paradox

on the level of multiplicity, and from that belief system/experience, any singular type of reality could never be resolved

but there is I claim a chance for the paradox to be resolved into from whence it came, which is something beyond description

it may not be too exotic either,
Might be right before your nose
Reality? Who nose?
 
H

HAL

Guest
Do tell.

Nose ?

Gnosis ?

How do you get Gnosis?
It is aimed to be reached through sexual excitation, intense emotions, flagellation, dance, drumming, chanting, sensory overload, hyperventilation and the use of disinhibitory or hallucinogenic drugs.

Well, nothing new there then.

;)
 
D

Dundee

Guest
Hey Welcome to the madhouse KozmicJewels, good to see another face round here. By the look of your post your going to fit in very well here. Welcome and post away :)
 
H

HAL

Guest
...but there is I claim a chance for the paradox to be resolved into from whence it came, which is something beyond description...

We do look forward to your description of the indescribable.

And, yes, welcome .

They are all mad here, except me.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Dundee
K

KozmicJewels

Guest
...but there is I claim a chance for the paradox to be resolved into from whence it came, which is something beyond description...

We do look forward to your description of the indescribable.

And, yes, welcome .

They are all mad here, except me.
Haha!
Well very nice to be Welcomed So, thank you You and hello to all you colorful souls ;)

of course I mean that Reality which is You, as far as we are in some journey to find that it seems unmistakable, we just keep churning up more once-invisible parts of ourSelf like a gardener digging up jewels

we feel that getting “deeper” must go forever, the beginningless being so unbound as it is

a Persian proverb states “it is very difficult to pierce the veil of ignorance for their is a rock on the fire”

the question to be asked is whether or not the means you are using and going about searching for depth will assuredly bring you any

Limitations in our cultural psyches pin is in so narrow
Even the most Broad of them still pinning us in as some “Soul” (which even I referred to you as)

The dichotomy of subject-object seems irreducible, precisely because (and only when) one looks from the vantage of that mode (believing in “knowledge as an object”)

engaging in that type of intelligence will get you split vision, no matter where you look


the Void seems real empty but maybe is Intelligent all it’s own, .... no? Remember looking at the leaves or the clouds as a child?
 
K

KozmicJewels

Guest
Haha!
Well very nice to be Welcomed So, thank you You and hello to all you colorful souls ;)

of course I mean that Reality which is You, as far as we are in some journey to find that it seems unmistakable, we just keep churning up more once-invisible parts of ourSelf like a gardener digging up jewels

we feel that getting “deeper” must go forever, the beginningless being so unbound as it is

a Persian proverb states “it is very difficult to pierce the veil of ignorance for their is a rock on the fire”

the question to be asked is whether or not the means you are using and going about searching for depth will assuredly bring you any

Limitations in our cultural psyches pin is in so narrow
Even the most Broad of them still pinning us in as some “Soul” (which even I referred to you as)

The dichotomy of subject-object seems irreducible, precisely because (and only when) one looks from the vantage of that mode (believing in “knowledge as an object”)

engaging in that type of intelligence will get you split vision, no matter where you look


the Void seems real empty but maybe is Intelligent all it’s own, .... no? Remember looking at the leaves or the clouds as a child?
Also, for those who will come to dress what I mean with a Triangulation,
What I mean is verily what you Are

so the amount to which you still are finding yourself through disguise, that is where you will approximate me at
Originally you are a Sphere,
Lacking nothing
Even now

but have you identified with a transitory thing, thus creating a shadow of need and want?

For each I would have to sit and be with, for verily so all of you are Reality itself painting a picture as some limited Fun, some flower dancing awhile, asking questions ....

keep asking those Deep questions... sleep on... When you wake even youll
Be gone!!

-Ikkyu

But let me see, how will you cut this uncut block?
 
D

Dr Wu

Guest
One could reduce that to everything is made of quarks (and smaller 'thingies') and it would cover it all.

I agree that when he sees an apple he is not seeing the actual particle construction of the apple that would be as close to reality as we can imagine. But he is seeing what in everyday life we call an apple. And that apple will still be an apple whether or not he is looking at it.
Well..there are several schools of thought on this and one is 'materialist reductionism' (what you are prbably referring to) where one accepts that the particles we have 'seen' and 'discovered' at that level are all there is and there is nothing more...but many quantum physicists and others think it's not that simple which is why Hoffman and others are exploring other models. Where the problem comes in with all of this is 'hard consciousness' - how it exists, is it just a by product of the brain, and why we can't explain how it works. If you listen to some of these videos all the way through there are many many questions that cannot be answered simply by using 'material reductionism' only.
 
H

HAL

Guest
The thing that has always interested me is if you take, for instance, a apple and an orange, both are mad eof quarks and other thingies yet to be defined. But what decides which is to be apple and which is to be orange ?

There has to be some fundamental thing that organises the bits into the atoms and then upward to the actual object.

Maybe the same thing that creates ufo.
 
D

Dundee

Guest
Isn't this all a great over complication? Thats not to say the nature of reality is simple. But if you look at the years dedicated to pondering the nature of reality in this way. It feels a little like sitting on the beach for 50 years wondering what the water feels like. Why not just go in the water and find out?.

Some of these concepts seem to me like an exersize in intellectual gymnastics. (I am trying to be kind :) )
I sit down and look at five paragraphs, and think jesus whats this all about, I left my bablefish at home, then after much sweat and pondering, I conclude, I think he just said that ducks like to swim!!

Sadhguru talks about this all the time.
This is not his best talk on it, but it makes a point.

Why not just sit down and look?

 
H

HAL

Guest
If one is ever going to be able to accept the ideas of extra dimensions etc, then one is forced into looking way beyond the physical.
 
D

Dundee

Guest
If one is ever going to be able to accept the ideas of extra dimensions etc, then one is forced into looking way beyond the physical.
That is preisely what Sadhguru has talked about in one form or another in almost all hs talks, he just says that reality is there for all to see, if only we take the time to look. I have had very very small glimpses over the decades and it has been life changingly profound. But I am no Sadhguru sadly, I practice, and try, but my life in the western way of thinking is like a boat anchor. But I do my best.