So what's the difference between an hallucination and an apparition ?

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Dundee

Guest
Well that is a leading question isn't it? :)
Sometimes of course they are the same.

But If I halucinate you cant see it can you. And halucinations have no physical manifestation.
So althought not definitive but one part of a definition could be a Halucination can't be seen by mutiple people and has no physical manifestationm where an apparition can.
 
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HAL

Guest
It may be a leading question, but it's not a trick one.

I'll come back to why that is in a day or two when others have had a chance to comment.

HAL

p.s. It's not related to the disagreement we had a little earlier. :D
 
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Dundee

Guest
Well the question itself seems to imply your position on that, that they are one and the same, but you mentioned elsewhere you have had aranormal stuff happen so I am confused where your going with this :)
I will be patient. lol
 
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HAL

Guest
Okay.

There seems to be two distinct ways of looking at the ufo phenomena.

The 'nuts and bolts' type, made in a similar way to how we make things, and is a solid artifact much as our spacecraft are.
Then there is the 'They are not actually 'there' , but are an artifact of out mind. I think Jung tends to this.

But what is meant by 'not actually there ?

Saying it is all in the mind is simplistic and, frankly, somewhat disparaging.

Unless the mind is acting as some kind of portal to some other realm. A realm occupied by the things we see on occasion.

Some years ago the following happened to me.

I was sitting in my dining room, which overlooks the local pathway going from the area to the main road. This path is frequently used., being the shortest way to the bus stop.

My wife was at work. and I was home as I was only working mornings.
I glanced up and saw her walking down the path. It was about the time I would expect to see her coming from work if she had finished at 4 pm.
I didn't give it any more thought and expected her to come into the house in about 30 seconds. But she didn't.
About five minutes later, a neighbor called looking for her. I said she wasn't here, but that I suspected she may have stopped off to talk to someone as I had sen her walk down the path.
I then went back to my book.
Just after five I again saw her walking down the path. This time with our daughter.
When they came in I mentioned that I had seen her an hour ago.
She responded that I couldn't have as she was then still at work. She had me our daughter on the bus home. 5pm out of town.

So what did I see ?

It was definitely her the first time. Same build, hair, clothes, shopping bag, way of walking. Absolutely no doubt. And I had ample time to look.
The only difference between the two sightings was that on one occasion the cardigan she was wearing was buttoned up, and on the other it wasn't.

It was some kind of apparition. A totally lifelike viewing of something that wasn't there. So real that I didn't give it a second thought.

This brings us to the second class of ufo sighting. The class where not everyone in an area see what some report. Is there some kind of circumstance where they are looking at something that is somewhere else. Not actually there. ?

As for the difference between apparitions and hallucinations.
I suspect that hallucinations are generally brought on by stress or some other mental problem. They also have a feeling of 'unreality' about them.
An apparition is very lifelike.

And like the people who claim to see ufos. i can only say that know what I saw. But there is no way of proving this.
 
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Dundee

Guest
Interesting, and I have had similar instances of things myself, so I know the kind of thing your talking about.
However there are a couple of important differences between what you saw and a geeralization of UFO sightings.

The first and most obviouse is that whatever yu saw, It was not your wife. She pointed out later she was at work at the time and could not have ben her. So it was something else. Halucination?? maybe, more likely a similarly dressed person and your mind and your expectations filled in the details. Maybe a coincidental person similarly dressed and similar features. Who knows, lots of other possibilities. But what you do know for sure is that it was not your wife.

Many UFO sightings may be similar in nature, a plane, car light, star, halucination or other and the viewers fill in the gaps of expectation. But the big difference is you know it was not your wife, so it must be an alternate exlanation.
You being the husband could be said to be an expert witness. Yet you still were in some way mistaken.

UFO's sometimes leave physical traces, and are picked up by radar doing things beyond our known capability.
Also like you are an expert witness for your wife, so sometimes are UFO witnesses.
However take (again) the Tic Tac UFO. You have multiple trained observers, technicians, pilots and crew all witness evidence of the tic tac. Is it possible that it was a mass halucination? Well I suppose, although how does a radar halucinate.

But it is more likely for a single individual to make a mistake of that ature than a whole bunch of people with supportig equipment.

I once threw a rolled up sock across the lounge at the cat. My wife and one of my sons saw the sock flash past but as the cat reacted two it both said it was a rat or a big mouse. I guess the cats reaction biased their thoughts. But they were both adamant it was a rat and not a sock. Even when I recovered the sock and repeated it they said no it was a rat.

It was not a rat. I was paying full attention to the room and the cat and I threw the sock.
Why do I bring this up, becasue I remember my wife geting angry at me and saying. "I know what I saw" :)

So while some UFOs fit your argument. I dont think it is the norm.
 
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Dr Wu

Guest
Hallucination and apparition have distinct definitions if we want to use the OED or similar reference work.
But in common usage a hallucination is in the person's mind while an apparition is used to mean something seen by someone or others in a situation and not an hallucinatory event.
 
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HAL

Guest
But if the apparition isn't seen by others, then by definition it has to also be in the 'observers' mind. Where else can it be ?

The point is, is the mind channeling something going on someplace else ?
 
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Dundee

Guest
But if the apparition isn't seen by others, then by definition it has to also be in the 'observers' mind. Where else can it be ?

The point is, is the mind channeling something going on someplace else ?
Is the channeling option the most likely explanation do you think?
Particularly in your sighting of your wife.?

As for being seen by one but not others. I agree that fits the definition. But there have been situations where for example dogs see something that humans don't. Without knowing the reality of what's being seen you can't find out why you saw it.

And comparing this to ufo sightings is drawing an awfully long bow.
 
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Dr Wu

Guest
But if the apparition isn't seen by others, then by definition it has to also be in the 'observers' mind. Where else can it be ?

The point is, is the mind channeling something going on someplace else ?
If the apparition is not seen by others then it's an hallucination by definition....but one can always argue and say they saw what they saw but it's not relevant if no one else was there.
The mind channeling is another issue not necessarily related to hallucination or apparition. It depends on the context of the discussion.
 
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Dundee

Guest
If the apparition is not seen by others then it's an hallucination by definition....but one can always argue and say they saw what they saw but it's not relevant if no one else was there.
The mind channeling is another issue not necessarily related to hallucination or apparition. It depends on the context of the discussion.
So many factors could contribute to one person seeing something another did not. Viewpoint, state of mind, clarity of vision, and so on. You can't bundle up every situation where one person sees something and another does not as all being a hallucination.

Thats like saying all roses are red. This object is red therefore it is a rose
 
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Dr Wu

Guest
So many factors could contribute to one person seeing something another did not. Viewpoint, state of mind, clarity of vision, and so on. You can't bundle up every situation where one person sees something and another does not as all being a hallucination.

Thats like saying all roses are red. This object is red therefore it is a rose
Yes..many factors could be involved in each instance. Without knowing the event and details it's hard making a call on what really happened and I think that's true for the ufo enigma as well.Each case should be looked at individually.
 
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HAL

Guest
I can't bring it to mind at the moment, but I recall a sighting in Scotland where, within a group pf people, not all of them could see an object that a couple of them could.
If the object was a solid entity, shouldn't all of them have seen it ? They were together.

If you dig into history, back to Kenneth Arnold, It makes one wonder why it was accepted.

If I remember, no one else saw anything. No other reports.

And Arnold was some eighty mile from the Cascades where he said he say the objects. That's a long way even in clear mountain air.
 
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Dr Wu

Guest
I can't bring it to mind at the moment, but I recall a sighting in Scotland where, within a group pf people, not all of them could see an object that a couple of them could.
If the object was a solid entity, shouldn't all of them have seen it ? They were together.

If you dig into history, back to Kenneth Arnold, It makes one wonder why it was accepted.

If I remember, no one else saw anything. No other reports.

And Arnold was some eighty mile from the Cascades where he said he say the objects. That's a long way even in clear mountain air.
Wasn't Arnold also flying at the time...? Unless one was up there they might not see the same thing from the ground if at all.

Regarding the other case....Dr Vallee has also talked about the fact that in some ufo cases not everyone present in the area sees the ufo. In some cases only one person or two see it while others do not. Why is that? Is the ufo slectively choosing people or is it a matter of 'paranormal sensitivity' from one person to another?
 
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HAL

Guest
Yes, Arnold was flying.
My point was that he was so far from where he said the objects were that it would have been hard to see them.